Christian Nation?

February 8, 2007 at 12:40 pm | Posted in Atheism, Beliefs, political, political commentary, Religion | 44 Comments

For all those that think we were founded with the intent of being a “Christian Nation”

“The Bible is not my Book and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma.”

-Abraham Lincoln

 

“Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man.”

-Thomas Jefferson, in Toward the Mystery

 

We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication.”

-Thomas Jefferson

 

The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity.”

-John Adams

 

Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize, every expanded prospect.”

-James Madison

 

So far as religion of the day is concerned, it is a damned fake… Religion is all bunk.”

-Thomas Edison

 

The Bible is “a mass of fables and traditions, mere mythology.”

-Mark Twain 

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  1. The first thing I’ll point out is that Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Edison, and Mark Twain didn’t have anything to do with the founding of our nation. But let me give you some other quotes and facts.

    During the early years of the founding of our nation, each session in the Senate opened with two hours of prayer.
    The largest church in the United States met in the House of Representatives every Sunday (Ref + more info) – and Thomas Jefferson attened it every Sunday during his Presidency.

    “Without the Bible, we cannot know good from evil.”
    -President Abraham Lincoln

    I have always said, always will say, that the studious perusal of the sacred volume [Bible] will make us better citizens.
    -Thomas Jefferson

    This is the text of President John Adams’ March 23, 1798 national Fasting and Prayer proclamation
    An Election Sermon preached before John Hancock and Samuel Adams.
    Signer of the Constitution Jacob Broom reminds his son “to be a Christian.

    “Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor…”
    George Washington

    “History is God’s providence in human affairs.”
    Daniel Webster

    “A Tale of Two Constitutions – The two different philosophies of constitutional interpretation are contrasted in this article.\
    James Madison and Religion in Public
    Freedom from Religion?

    I believe the United States was founded on Christianity. So I do not think Christianity should be shunned from the public enviorment – nor do I think religion should be shunned from the public enviorment. We have freedom of religion. By praying in public schools we are not forcing anyone to believe what we believe. We’re just practicing out beliefs. We have the freedom of speech and the freedom of religion.
    Also I must ask, why can’t the Christian have his Bible out but the Wiccan can have his Book of Wicca out? Why does the Christian have to put his Bible away? Augh, that’s a little bit of a tangent. I’m sorry.

    I believe we should have religious freedom to practice our religion – which is a Constitutional Right. I also believe this nation was founed on Christianity.

    If you would like me to find more references, I could find some more. But you can also go to WallBuilders.com for more information. David Barton (the founder of Wall Builders) owns more of the original documents from the forming of our nation than anyone else. He has a great deal of them memorized as well. He is considered the leading expert on matters of the forming of our nation.

  2. Um… Can I comment? I’ve commented three times now…
    Or are you not letting me comment here?

  3. Since you just commented, of course you are allowed to comment here. I welcome yours and all comments, so Brian, please comment away.

  4. Ok good. Thank you for letting me participate here.
    That’s weird…
    I wrote a long comment and tried to post it three times…
    I’ll try re-posting it…

  5. I just tried to re-post it and WordPress said I’ve already said it. It had links in it, so it’ll require your approval. Could you go to the comments section on the WP Dashboard and approve my comment?
    If it’s not there I’ll try and re-post it without the links.

  6. Brian, your post was in fact tagged as spam. I’ve allowed the post as you can see above. On praying in the public schools, or anywhere else for that matter: No one is preventing anyone from praying anywhere they please. I believe that is a silent process and shouldn’t be a forced group activity. You may or may not be aware that many (perhaps all) public schools in the US used to have enforced Christian prayer on a daily basis. How is this fair to athiests, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims or anyone who doesn’t happen to be a Christian? How is this freedom of religion? Imagine your discomfort or dismay were you to suddenly find yourself in a situation where everyone present was required to kneel on a prayer rug and offer prayers to Allah?

  7. Thank you for approving that post.
    I also apologize if I came across as rude in asking if I could comment. That was not my intention and I probably worded that comment wrong.
    I’m sorry for that.

    I do not believe in forcing people to pray. I am strongly against that. But I am against not-allowing prayer.

    Something else to consider:
    There have been many cases where teachers and students have had their Bibles sitting on their desks and were forced to remove their Bible’s from their desks. I do not think that is right. If you would like to put your Bible/Koran/Wicca-book/whatever on your desk, feel free to do so. It’s not forcing anyone to do anything.

    Also I am against discrimination against Christian related activities. There have been cases where Bible studies/clubs (that are optional) have been banned from taking place. That also seems rediculous to me. It’s not forcing anyone to do anything.

    Ah, I’m sorry. I’m getting a little too rant-ish. That ‘issue’ can really urk me. If anyone has a different way of looking at, please inform me of it – because it makes no sense to me.

  8. You’re welcome, Brian. No, you didn’t come across as rude. I actually agree with some of what you say. I don’t believe people who chose to pray should be prohibited from doing so, so long as it isn’t a case of let’s all bow our heads everybody join in. Simply having a copy of one’s choice of holy or spiritual guide book residing on the desk with one’s other effects is really not a big deal, so long as it isn’t being used to try to teach, preach, convert, cite examples, etc. On the other hand, desks have drawers, and compartments that a bible can be stored in. It would still be close at hand whenever you felt the need to consult it or read a passage. However many times this isn’t the case. I have worked in education, and more than once, a student brought their particular holy book and during ‘show and tell’ or ‘sharing’ proceded to preach to the other children. This was in elementary school. I’ve seen more sophisticated versions of the same type of behavior from both teachers and students in junior high and high schools. Now you know when this stuff happens it ruins it for those, like yourself, who simply want to have their bible close by.

    I have no problem with Christian related activies, but I do have a problem with them being held in a public school that is funded with (my) taxpayer money, unless that group has an agreement to rent or in someway compensate the school for the space. But this would hardly seem necessary as last time I checked, there was no shortage of churches, any of which should be happy to host Christian related activies.

  9. Why are the temples of the pseudo-science evolution allowed in the schools run by the taxpayer – which includes me? There should be choice.
    The argument about you being a taxpayer does not work because there always other taxpayers with different views.

  10. Evolution is a science, a very slow science. Evidence of evolution is being witnessed during this century. Heard of bacteria being resistant to antibiotics? It’s called adaption, which is evolution. There was a big deal about mosquitos developing resistance to pesticides, and in 2003 they identified the gene responsible. Evolution in action!

    Science explains the natural world, which is why it should be taught in public schools. It uses evidence to explain the natural world and it teaches kids to think objectively. Evolution is a science and evidence of evolution occurring exists, so it isn’t a religion where people only believes it has happened; there is evidence that is has happened.

  11. I would not have a problem with religion if people were not so adamant that their religion is the “true” religion or “true” God. No one in these blogs is doing this, but I see it all too often. How many wars do we have to see in the world, all in the name of religion? Too much blood is shed in the name of God and Allah. The world would be a far better place if, instead of religion, people merely lived their lives based on the principles of loving and respecting one another. Yes, this is a simplistic view, but mankind often makes things more difficult than they need be. We all seek happiness, and all humans are composed of the same genetic makeup. We expend tremendous amounts of effort dwelling on those things which make us different. When you consider that ours is one galaxy in one hundred thousand million, we are very insignificant indeed. Yet we place so much importance on who we are, what we believe, and what is correct.
    Honjii, I agree with you on so many levels, but at the same time I cannot deny Christians, Muslims, Mormons, etc. their need to believe in something other than themselves if it helps them to live a better life. I myself tend to gravitate towards the Eastern philosophies, in particular, Buddhism. But my philosophical beliefs enable me to make sense of the world around me, and I think this is the primary function of religion for most people.
    To reiterate, the only time I find it a problem is when people seek to impose their will on others through religion. I think it’s almost assinine-except that it makes for interesting, timeless debates-whether God exists or not, whether it’s all mere evolution and science. Everyone thinks they “know” the answers. I don’t think we know until we die.

  12. Artist4Life,

    “Honjii, I agree with you on so many levels, but at the same time I cannot deny Christians, Muslims, Mormons, etc. their need to believe in something other than themselves if it helps them to live a better life. ”

    I hope I haven’t given the impression that I wish to deny anyone the right to their beliefs.

  13. No you haven’t Hongii. You have been very generous with your understanding that everyone worships a different diety. I’m including athiests as well, since I have no power to say it’s not. I would also like to note to the Christians that, while it might appear to them that their religion is slighted, it is not. It is to be found in our legal system and sanctified by the courts. At least, the old testament Christians. They don’t put the believers in the New Testament in the court house. That might change a few things in there. Don’t forget, not only are we just one planet in a hundred million, there are six billion of us on this one planet. So, why don’t we just love our neighbors? Thanks Honjii. I read this article because of the similarity in it’s title with one I had written earlier, but I really liked it. I’m having fun reading my blogroll tonight. Thanks, Jim

  14. I have no problem with Christian related activies, but I do have a problem with them being held in a public school that is funded with (my) taxpayer money, unless that group has an agreement to rent or in someway compensate the school for the space. But this would hardly seem necessary as last time I checked, there was no shortage of churches, any of which should be happy to host Christian related activies.

    Agreed… But I don’t like the fact that NASA spent over three million dollars on a satilite that will ram it self into a comet to figure out how it created it self.
    I also don’t like how Evolution is being taught (with my taxes) as fact – when it is indeed a theory. *shrugs*

    There will ALWAYS be someone unhappy. We just need to find a middle ground and show both points of view. Athiests are allowed to share their views and use school facilities for their purposes, why can’t Christians?
    Why can’t Evolution be taught in public schools along side Creationism as theories and allow the students to choose which they believe? (There’s considerable evidence for both sides)

    Hm… kinda a round-about way of making a point…

  15. Evolution is a theory, but a theory in science is something that has never been proved wrong. It is not a thought. I think you are confusing that with a hypothisis, and creationism has no evidence other than that offered by evolution. The Big Bang is similar to the version offered in the Bible, but it is a tenuous similarity.
    Why can’t other religions offer their version of creationism? Why is it only the Christian religion we see offered?
    We pay millions to ram a satellitie, but billions to kill our fellow man. Ramming a satellite to learn more about our surroundings. Ramming a satellite because we have a passion to try and understand our surroundings. Killing because that is what our species does best. War is the province of religion. Just my point.

  16. (This is Brian. I’m not at home, so I’m not on my Admin account)

    Ok… Evolution is a hypothosis. *shrugs* I’m not a scientist – I apologize if I mix up terms.

    Why can’t other religions offer heir version of creationism?
    I never said that. If they want to – go ahead! Let’s get all points of view in and examine them. I’m all for that – I actually enjoy doing that. 🙂

    War? Killing billions? I’m not following you. Yes – the US goes to war. We kill people – people die. But what would happen if we did not go to war and did not try and controll terrorism? Most likely another 9/11 – or possibly something even worse. If we do not actively try and protect our nation and it’s people, we will be forced to do it in the end – and more people will die.

    And my point with the satelite was that someone will be upset about something. If we try and appease everyeone, well, it just can’t be done. If someone doesn’t like it that we can’t hold “religious meetings” on school property using tax payers dollars, someone else will be upset that we can. If someone doesn’t like it that we spend millions of dollars to ram a comet, someone won’t like it if we don’t.
    We simply can’t try an appease everyone – instead we need to accomodate as many as possible – at the same time. Not only allow one view.

    While I’m on the subject of only allowing one view, (I know… this is a little rabit trail…) what’s wrong with talking about God in school? There are many people/teachers/principles/etc that won’t allow anything “religious.” Why? We have the freedom of speech. Why can’t I talk about my faith in God, while others can talk about their faith in no god?
    Ok – I’ll cut that little rant short there.

  17. Brian, I understand your frustration with your religion, but there are many good reasons for the seperation. There are classes that include religion in them, they’re just not in science classes. In science, reason is the reigning diety.
    The problem with including religion is, as you pointed out, you can’t appease everyone. And, it is a personal matter. A job for parents, not govenments. As for killing, that was spending billions of dollars, not killing billions of people. We’re not that good at killing. Not yet anyway. Not without nukes. I don’t know of any teachers teaching atheism, but that is a religion as well. Or at least, a religious belief. I hope that helps, Jim

  18. Science class is teaching a religion – Athiesm. If you’d like me to go into that discussion, I can.

    “In science, reason is the reigning deity.”
    I must point something out…

    something with a probability greater than 1050 is considered impossible?
    … the chances that the process of Evolution actually occurred are 1:10:1030. Or… that is… One to the ten to the tenth to the thirtieth. That’s a big number! In fact, if you could write a million zeroes a second, it would take you a few billion years to write that number down!
    Impossible?

    You’re also implying there is no reason in religion. I say there is. There is reason in Evolution/Athiesm, Christianity, and just about all religions.

    I’m not saying that you can’t appease everyone with religion. I’m saying that no matter what you do, you can’t appease everyone. If a Republican is elected, the Democrats will be upset (and vise versa). If everyone was required to wear a dress, someone would be upset and someone would be happy.
    You get the point…

  19. Augh, there was an error in my html in the previous post. Let me re-post the quote.

    something with a probability greater than 10:50 is considered impossible?
    … the chances that the process of Evolution actually occurred are 1:10:10:30. Or… that is… One to the ten to the tenth to the thirtieth. That’s a big number! In fact, if you could write a million zeroes a second, it would take you a few billion years to write that number down!
    Impossible? – SupernaturalWarfare

  20. Long shots do win. Evolution did happen. It is happening in front of us. It is nothing but adaptation to the environment. And science has to have repeatable, demonstratable results. Religion doesn’t. Religion is more about politics than God. So, let’s go ahead and have the Hindu religion only in class. After all, it provided the Genesis and Noah stories. It has been the root religion of every major religion out there. Okay, we will now have Hindu prayer in school and study Hindu Creationism (which is a metaphysical version of the Big Bang theory anyway). Let’s see how that flies. How would that fly in Kansas? If you are a role model for your children, you have nothing to worry about. Putting religion in schools is trying to tell other people how to worship. It is a quest for government to help propogate a religion. Sorry, but I think it’s wrong.

  21. Long shots? That’s a really long shot…
    Evolution is happening in front of us? Really? Where? Please show me an example!
    All I see is micro-evolution (small changes within a species). Show me an example of macro-evolution (changes from species to species). I’d like to know about one.

    “Religion is more about politics than God?” I have no idea what you’re talking about. You’re not thinking about my religion then. I don’t consider my faith a religion. I think of it as a relationship. My faith is not a set of rules and regulations.

    Hinduism is the root religion of every major religion out there? Prove it.

    Currently the government is “propogating” the Athiestic religion. I think that’s wrong. And I’m not saying present just one point of view, I’m saying present all views. Not present a hypothosis as fact.

  22. All religions are political. Your relationship with God is spiritual. The mass movements though are always guided by politicians; be they called clergy or kings. You have seen examples in micro, but now demand a major change in a species right in front of your eyes in order to believe? Evolution on a small scale is a fast thing. We are causing many changes with our waste products and such. To ask for a major shift in something that takes thousands of years in a single lifetime is a bit much. You have to look at fossil evidence and such.
    As far as proving Hinduism is a root religion, research it. Genesis is from the Hindu and the story of the flood is almost completely lifted from Hindu, to include the names. I confess, I don’t remember the texts, there have been so many over the years, but that is easy enough to figure out if you truly want the answer. And the government is propagating Fundamental Christianity , if they are propagating anything at all. By the way, a hypothosis would be a law, except that it hasn’t been around long enough. The BS they spouted in Kansas to replace evolution was bad science and all political. They purposely mis-used the terms to get their way. And that, was fundamental christians and the actions were political. What they were doing, in fact, was spreading a lie. And that would be a political action as they avoided any scientific testing of their findings. Sorry if that sounds harsh, I’m just in a rush. Short lunch break. Take care, Jim

  23. That is simply not true. My faith is NOT guided by cleargymen/pastors/etc. My faith is guided by the Word of God (a.k.a. – the Bible) I do not believe in anything a pastor says without testing it to the Bible. My “religion” is a relationship – not politics.

    How can you say that Evolution is true and is happening before our eyes if you can’t give me an example?
    Fossil evidence? Show me an example of evolution with the fossil evidence. Prove it. Please.

    Did you consider that Creation and the Flood could have been taken from Christianity and Judeism? That could be a possibility as well.

    The government is propagating Fundamental Christianity? Really? Prove it.

    Hypothosis (according to Dictionary.com):
    1. a proposition, or set of propositions, set forth as an explanation for the occurrence of some specified group of phenomena, either asserted merely as a provisional conjecture to guide investigation (working hypothesis) or accepted as highly probable in the light of established facts.
    2. a proposition assumed as a premise in an argument.
    3. the antecedent of a conditional proposition.
    4. a mere assumption or guess.

    Hm… I don’t see how a hypothosis can be practically a fact.
    Also, in order for something to be a fact it must be observed (which we haven’t observed Evolution).

  24. Brian, please re-read the posts. Evolution is a theory, not a hypotesis. You have given the definition of creationism instead. After I gave you it as a theory, you turned it around and I did not catch myself in my reply.
    Prove that christianity is sponsored by government? Go to a judge and see just what book he whips on out. Hint, it ain’t a Koran. We had mandated prayer (mandated by peer pressure in some cases, but it is still a mandate) for years in our schools. Only recently has there been change in that area. We have faith-based groups finding favor with our government. Christian faith-based, that is. There’s big money in the government. I bet you would be pissed if you were spending your tax dollars to fund some religion that disagreed with yours. Just look at how upset you are over science.
    Go to college, study geology. Study the sciences. They have the proof. All you need is an open mind. And a big check that doesn’t bounce!Besides, you already said you were aware of evolution being a fact. Read Darwin’s works. They’re fascinating. Oh, but you need some huge species leap. It’s just adaptation. Am I supposed to go and dig up the fossils and bring them to you? And just exactly how would this fossil have to look in order to satisfy you? Seek and ye shall find. Only, you will always find fault if that is what you are looking for. Let your mind be free to search for the truth, no matter how uncomfortable it may be to question. To question everyone and everything. Especially those things you hold holy. For if they are holy, they will stand up to any examination you give them.
    As far as the bible predating hinduism, I think not. Does that make it any less true to you? Or that many of the “miraculous” events didn’t happen at all? Do you think that our modern “factual” vision of truth is the same as the ancients? Real truth has never lain itself so openly for the masses. It has to be uncovered by the questioning mind. There is real truth in the bible, but it is not the only version of it. And the new does not disagree with Science. It’s only your opinion that makes it seem that way. Don’t take just some clergy-politician’s word on these sciences. Find a professor in the area. There is more to unravelling the past than finding some “missing link.” But, the political christians always find a way to make it seem a failure. Especially if it cuts down on their tithings. Sorry, I just hate repeating myself. Time is the currency of this realm and I don’t like to waste it. I have listened to you twist my words around, and I have not done the same to you. Besides, we’ve had what you ask for in the past. they called that time, The Dark Ages. Tell me the Pat Robertson crowd would be more benevolent than those bastards.
    Also, for those disagreeing with the author on christianity, perhaps they should read up on their history. Get into the minds of those men. I think you will find their interpretation of what “God” a bit different from today’s interpretation. You could say that Christianity “evolved” in that short amount of time. Just as God evolved from someone you could wrestle with in the old testament, to a fairly omnipotent diety by the end of it all. Though, he might have “de-volved” from the time of the creation to the time of the “wrassling”. I guess God is in the eye of the beholder. Problem is, we all have different eyes. Take care, Jim

  25. One last thing Brian. If your faith is not guided by a pastor/clergy, then why consult with them at all? Aren’t they supposed to be guides? If you could re-read all the posts, you will find all your questions have been answered. Already. And sometimes twice or more. Schools are a place of education for the masses. Religion is your choice. It is also your responsibility to instill those religious values in your children if that is what you

  26. Sorry, it just got crazy with my keyboard!
    I meant to say, it is your choice to instill those religious values in your children if that is what you want. But, you do not have the right to instill them in others. Just as you don’t have to have others shove their religion down your throat. While I gave the metaphor of Reason being the diety of Science, it was just that. A metaphor. Einstein gave the best description of science, when he said something like it being a dull tool, but the best we have to understand the universe. A better reason why science is studied is offered in an earlier post by a different person, but offered to answer you. I hope

  27. Wait, originally you said Evolution is a fact. Now you’re saying it’s a theory?

    We had mandated prayer. A judge will “whip out” a Bible – but it is not needed anymore. Yes, there are “faith-based and Christian” institutions sponsored by the government. There are also many athiestic government-sponsored programs.

    Study the sciences? I have. I’ve read Darwin’s Origin of Species. He doensn’t have totally convincing evidence.
    I’m not asking you to go dig up fossils. You said that Evolution is happening before our eyes. You then told me to check the fossil record. By doing so, you indicate that you know there is evidence there – so you know of some examples already. Thus you don’t need to go dig up fossils – they’ve already been found (supposedly). I’m simply asking you to inform me of these examples.
    Geology? Did you know that Carbon dating is only good for something under 10,000 years old? Anything beyond that isn’t accurate? I have talked to people who have calculated the age of something via carbon dating. In doing so they get different dates with each calculation/experiment – numbers that vary by thousands, and sometimes millions of years.

    I do question everything. I anylize everything – from all points of view.

    I have not twisted your words. I would like you to simply show me an example of evolution. You said we can see evolution happening today and in the fossil record. You have yet to show me any examples. *shrugs* I’d like to see some.

    I have put research into the origin of my faith. I have ready many books by “ancient” authors. I’ve “gotten into the minds of those authors.” The view of God hasn’t changed. My God is the same God of the Old Tesament and New Testament. He hasn’t changed.

    The Dark Ages? Yes, they were screwed up – that doesn’t mean that God was.

    You sill haven’t told me how Hinduism came before Christianity/Judeism. You have just stated your opinion.

    There is only a version of the truth in the Bible? So what you’re saying is that there are different truths. So was what Hitler did alright? His truth was that the Aryan race was the greatest race and all other races should die out or serve the Aryan race. If there are different truths and no “truth-maker,” who are you to say that Hitler was wrong?

    Why do we have pastors? To teach us. They are guides. But they just tell us what God tells us. It’s kinda like having an announcer. God declares it, then pastors announce it to the masses. They didn’t make it up, they get it from God and then tell the people.

    The thing about “education for the masses” and “instilling religious values in your children” is that the education system is instilling religious values. They are instilling the values of the Athiestic religion.

  28. If you looked for the Hinduism, you would find it pretty easily. It’s not that big a secret, except in Christianity. I have already answered, every single demand you have in this latest comment. I can do no more with people who don’t want to know.

  29. First of all, I’m not demanding. I’m simply asking.

    If it’s easy to find and not a big secret, it shouldn’t be that hard to explain.

    And no, you have not given me an example of Evolution.

    And, I brought up somehting new that you did not respond to:

    There is only a version of the truth in the Bible? So what you’re saying is that there are different truths. So was what Hitler did alright? His truth was that the Aryan race was the greatest race and all other races should die out or serve the Aryan race. If there are different truths and no “truth-maker,” who are you to say that Hitler was wrong?

  30. I shouldn’t have to answer you question on evolution, as you already said you had witness examples of it, but then in my last comment I asked exactly what it is that you would like the fossil record to look like in order to convince you.
    As for the Hitler remark, that is apples to oranges. Hitler was political, like most religions, but he was not a religious movement. However, the truth to be found in his movement is that vigilance and courage are responsibilities of the citizens. That if we do not heed those lessons, and give into hate and nationalism, then we are doomed to continue the same path in this country. A country with secret prisons. A country that has managed to deliver the double whammy of religion and fascism to enslave it’s peoples.

    As for calling evolution a “fact”, I just re-read the postings and that is incorrect. I called it a theory and explained the word. Perhaps you should re-read Darwin. It makes perfect sense. Besides, it’s beautiful literature in it’s own right.

    In short Brian, I wonder what good it does to tell you these things. I don’t mean to be rude, but I am frustrated at having to say them over and over and over. I think I will just quit trying. I don’t have much spare time, and I like to use it as productivelly as possible. Please read those words again. You could probably just google your way to the answers easily enough. But I am tired of my words being changed around.
    And for an example of evolution, just go to livescience.com. It’s sort of a “popular mechanics” view of science, but they have many examples in their news. It’s just all about adaptation. Natural, sexual, cataclysmic, and gradual. Just change. You just have to get the idea that time is measured in human years. We didn’t change into homo sapiens over-night or in one fell swoop. It is far too complicated for a comment section. Besides, you never answered my question before complaining I didn’t answer it. I hope you can understand my frustration, and my decision to end the discussion. Keep searching and you shall find the truth. But first you must make sure it’s the truth you’re seeking and not just being right. That’s all I can tell you. Peace, Jim

  31. Brian,
    I must say your avatar pic is very small but you look remarkably good for your age, and I’m guessing you must be absolutely ancient because on March 18, you said,

    in order for something to be a fact it must be observed (which we haven’t observed Evolution)

    I take that to mean you observed god creating Adam and Eve otherwise, according to your statement above, how would you know this to be true? But still I’m confused, because even with my teensy bit of bible knowledge I thought Adam and Eve were the first folks god created so how could anyone have observed this event? Yet you accept it as fact.

  32. Jim, what question did I not answer?
    I would argue you haven’t answered my questions. *shrugs* but that’s just me.

    I don’t know what it’ll take to convince me with the fossil record. I’d just like to see some evidence. I have done some research into that portion, and I have not found anything. I have seen several hoaxes, but nothing ‘solid.’
    From what you’re saying, there must be something convincing – I’d like to know what it is.

    I thought you said all religions were political. *is confused*
    But it’s not a matter of religion. It’s a matter of how your look at the world. If you think truth is only perspective, than from his perspective it was alright.

    In the scientific world, something must be observed for it to be fact. Well, the relm of science.
    And with Adam and Eve, it can’t be ‘proven.’ It requires faith.

  33. One more thing Honjii – about the proving scientifically. Check this article for some quotes on how to prove something scientifically.
    I’m going to expand on proving things non-scientifically using Josh McDowell.

    Now, if the scientific method was the only method of proving something, you couldn’t prove that you went to your first hour class this morning or that you had lunch today. There’s no way you can repeat those events in a controlled situation.
    Now here’s what is called the legal-historical proof, which is based on showing that something is fact beyond a reasonable doubt. In other words, a verdict is reached on the basis of the weight of the evidence. That is, there’s no reasonable basis for doubting the decision. It depends upon three typed of testimony: oral testimony, written testimony, and exhibits (such as a gun, bullet, notebook). Using the legal method of determining what happened, you could prety well prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you were in class this morning: your friends saw you, you have your notes, the professor remembers you.
    More than a Carpenter – by: Josh McDowell

  34. My question is the same one addressed by Honjii and by you. What exactly would the evidence have to look like for you to accept it? You have already given the answer while wondering what the question is: You don’t know. I can’t answer something if you don’t know what it is. There is plenty of evidence, but it would seem to me that you would rather be mystified by it all. That you don’t want to see it. If you don’t, then just say so. Don’t keep asking the same questions over and over and expect to be proven right. Read some Jay Gould, read some Darwin. But don’t expect me to try and answer any more, it’s too difficult unmangling my answers to say anything. Anything which you don’t seem to want to hear. You question all aspect of evolution, but as Honjii says, you seem to take the Bible at face value. If you truly wanted these answers, I can’t help but believe you would have found them already. But, I don’t believe you do. I believe you would rather find proof the bible holds all answers. Thank God it doesn’t!

  35. I said, “I don’t know what would convince me.” If there’s plenty of evidence, then show it to me. Just lay out something. Anything. I’d really like to see it.
    I am genuinely curious what y’all believe and what evidence y’all have to support it. If y’all can convince me, then please do. I want to know if I’m not living my life according to the truth.

    I read Darwin, and it did make many good points. It was well written – it was good literature. I still came to the conclusion that one species can become another different species wasn’t proven. If you have something that says otherwise, please let me know.

    I have questioned the Bible. I have done plenty of research, attended classes, even campl – specifically analyzing religions, Christianity, and the like. I have gone through periods of doubt and disbelief – yet I have discovered that the Bible is true and consistant.

  36. If you read Darwin, and other scientific materials(anthropology, genetics, etc.) and came away with a simplistic view (the one usually espoused by creationists) that evolution teaches; one species becomes another then perhaps you didn’t understand what you read because that isn’t how evolution works.

  37. I still came to the conclusion that one species can become another different species wasn’t proven.

    …Or was that Kent Hovind?

    *does best Fox Mulder* The truth IS out there…

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

  38. Yes Brian, the bible is the only constant you find, though it is one strangely inconsistent book. God gambling with the devil in Job. Moses talking with burning bushes (by the way, that was probably weed burning, it’s in every major religion, to include Christianity. Yes, since it was in Judaic history, it has to be in Christian history), and it has horsemen galloping all over a sinful world. You can even wrestle with God in the bible. But you can’t find the reason in Science? In fact, you fight the reason in science with every available weapon you can find.You seek out those luddites who rail against science. The truth is Brian, you don’t want to know the answer. It has been given to you on numerous occassions in this one posting. And yet, you do not see.I’m amazed you even believe the internet exists. Since it’s not in the bible. We can’t prove it to you. Because you don’t want to believe it’s true. Well, I’m sorry, but it is a lot easier to believe in, than much of the bible. for it is certainly unreasonable.
    And by the way brian. That wrestling with God was most certainly not of the spiritual nature. It was physical. So, if the bible is true and constant, then you should be able to duplicate the same experience. So, just ask God. Wrestle with him and make him give you the answer. Hey, he almost lost the last time he fought; it could happen. For you surely won’t allow yourself to hear the answer here. I’m sorry if I sound blunt, but this is so exasperating. I really would like for you to discover reason in your life. A little balance is good for a soul/mind/body. God and evolution aren’t exclusive. Creation is a process. It is a verb just like God is a verb. And don’t think evolutionists aren’t in awe of the world. How insignificant we are. The greater the reason, the greater the awe. Try it sometime. Seek and ye shall find, but you must insist on knowing what you REALLY want to find. For you sure as hell ain’t seeing it here, and it’s in billboard sized letters. Peace, Jim

  39. Wait a second, if transitions from species to species isn’t how it works, then how can we get from a single celled organism, then how can there be so many different species today?

    There are two kinds of evolution: micro-evolution and macro-evolution.
    Micro-evolution is easy to see. Take dogs for example. We have golden retrievers, chiwawas, German shepherds, etc. That is micro-evolution.
    Macro-evolution on the other hand is what is required for the theory of Evolution to be true. Macro-evolution is the transition from one species to a totally different species.

    Inconsistent? I’d argue opposite. Many highly philosophical people were Atheists, tried to disprove Christianity, and were converted to Christianity – C.S. Lewis and Josh McDowell are perfect examples.
    God wasn’t gambling with the devil. God was testing Job and using the devil as means to do so.
    And what is inconsistent about Moses talking to a burning bush (when you take into account an all powerful God) and ‘horsemen galloping all over a sinful world?’
    And how can we wrestle with God in the Bible? (physically)

    I do find reason in science. I do not find reason in Evolution.

    I do earnestly seek. But evidence is required. Am I just totally blind? Or is has there been no evidence given? I simply cannot see any evidence that y’all have given me. (except for that link – which I will look into)

    The answer has been given to me? I’ve just heard y’all say Evolution is true and Atheism is true. No overwhelming evidence has been given.

  40. look it all up Brian. You can’t get your answer in 30 seconds or less. And the bible says you can physically wrestle with god. So, it must be true. It also has angels walking up to houses and knocking on doors. Yet, we don’t seem to replicate these experiments in modern times. Maybe they all died off. Or maybe they were created in order to give one person power over another. Hey, if Darwin and Gould can’t convince you, then I guess no=one can. But, if evolution is not true, then please prove to me that god exists. Prove to me in 30 seconds or less. Prove to me that the bible is not just a load of crap designed to enslave people to do a ruling faction’s will. Prove to me all of this.
    God did gamble with the devil. It was a wager. And having your wife replaced as reward isn’t much of a reward if you loved your wife. But that part of reward has been noted as being added on at a later date. Oops! Wouldn’t that be blasphemous to make an “addition” to the “word” of god? Then again, Job always read like a play instead of scripture. Imagine, the ancient hollywood equivelant of a movie getting into the bible.
    Brian, if you keep on going down the line on the dogs, in a few more tens of thousands of years, you will have what looks like completely different species. Sort of like a chihuaha doesn’t look much like a Bull Mastiff. Sort of like we don’t look much like fish. Sort of like we don’t look like a very intelligent life form now. If there is a god, I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t be christian. Which is the real crux with you. Not if there is a god, but what faith he is. Or she. Or it.If god is a christian, then I’ll take hell. There’s just too much ignorance in that religion for me to take. I imagine the company in hell would be a lot better.

  41. dThat was a bit harsh. Sorry, really bad mood today. Doesn’t mean I need to take it out on anyone else though. Seriously, re-read the texts. With a beginner’s eye. With no pre-dispositions. No leanings toward or against. I think you will find them much more interesting and knowledgeable if you do so. Answers come but only when you are ready to hear them. That’s all I can say, Jim

  42. Hmm, it’s not letting me post comments. honjii, can you check the spam filter?

  43. Stephen,
    There are no comments in the spam filter (or awaiting moderation). I’m confused you said it’s not letting you post, but this one is posted?

  44. That’s really weird. I tried about three times, and it took me to a white screen. Perhaps the hyperlinks?

    Brian:

    Like microevolution, macroevolution and speciation have been observed in the lab.

    talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

    Another example:

    We all need vitamin C. Most mammals have a gene to synthesize it – they don’t need to eat oranges. The same gene can be found BROKEN in the human AND chimpanzee genome. This would make no sense from a Creationist perspective. Why would God include broken gene? With evolution, however, we can theorize it was due to a change in our common ancestor’s eating habits.

    Biology is a fascinating subject.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C#Evolutionary_rationales


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